tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post1804219416434197132..comments2023-10-02T05:33:15.293-05:00Comments on The Contemporary Calvinist: You Cannot Reason with a Pro-Choice Atheist (Continued)Lee Sheltonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11254842261338255019noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-69726449178074368782011-03-18T21:05:03.853-05:002011-03-18T21:05:03.853-05:00I think this Marie is out of touch with reality co...I think this Marie is out of touch with reality concerning the abortion issue. First of all, rather than abortion, Marie should be advocating adoption. Just because it is extremely painful for a mother to give up her own child to adoption, it doesn't mean she will regret her decision later, and it certainly doesn't mean the adoption will end in disaster, either. Most adoptions are successful, by the way. Secondly, what right does Marie have to claim that it is morally wrong to harm others when she turns around and supports abortion knowing full well the harm abortion causes the fetus? And just because we start out as a single cell, and anything bad can happen during the pregnancy at any moment, it doesn't mean the baby should be stripped of its personhood. If two human beings got together and created this child, and these two human beings are persons, then I guess that fertilized egg has become a person, too, since it eventually develops into a human being, capable of feeling pain, by the way, because if this child were born prematurely, it would be able to feel pain, too. This means that an unborn child of the same gestational age as this preemie can also feel pain. Anyway, it is Marie and others like her who are out of touch with reality, not the author of this Blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-81775203103809779972010-08-08T12:20:45.488-05:002010-08-08T12:20:45.488-05:00"If it isn't a person -- whether one, two..."If it isn't a person -- whether one, two, or three cells -- then what is it? A kangaroo? A frog? A rock?"<br /><br />A human fetus. Personhood is defined by the mind. <br /><br />"When do YOU believe personhood begins?"<br /><br />When the brain starts functioning at a level above that of animals we eat. I believe that is around 8 months, but I'm not positive.<br /><br />"It seems to me that someone who doesn't believe in God, yet believes in a woman's "right to choose," would grant women the "choice" at any point during their role as mother to have an abortion."<br /><br />While pregnant a women cannot get rid of a fetus by any means other than abortion. After pregnancy there is no physical connection between a mother and child forcing them together.<br /><br />"I believe in God, the Creator of the universe and ultimate Law-Giver. My morality extends from that. "<br /><br />How does that work? I hear it often, but I don't see how believing God is the ultimate law giver provides morality. After all, plenty of people throughout history have believed that and gotten rather different results. <br /><br />"In fact, B's death may mean the improvement of the welfare of 10, 100, or even 1,000 people."<br /><br />Isn't that exactly how the military works? <br /><br />"since you don't believe in an objective moral standard, then you are in no position to tell anyone that their actions are immoral."<br /><br />That is where reality comes in. We can measure the effects of differet beliefs and the ones that give the greatest benefits are obviously the correct one.<br /><br />"If every woman were to abort each pregnancy, society wouldn't just fail to function, it would cease to exist."<br /><br />Correct. And if everyone ate candy until they exploded society would fall apart. Which is why we must ban chocolate.Samuel Skinnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01587994908818534357noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-72553895153992338092010-01-25T16:17:44.639-06:002010-01-25T16:17:44.639-06:00Marie stated that life begins when one is "bo...Marie stated that life begins when one is "born" according the US. Isn't there also a Federal law that states that if one murders a pregnant woman they are tried for the deaths of not one being, but two? These two things seem to contradict eachother.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-12803464656971122152009-10-12T07:44:17.764-05:002009-10-12T07:44:17.764-05:00You say there are sources older than the Bible upo...You say there are sources older than the Bible upon which people have based their morality. However, if the Bible is the inspired word of God, then it just isn't possible to find a source older than that which created the universe. As it stands, the Bible is the most reliable, consistent, and manuscript-supported book in history. By any standard used in a court of law, I think the Bible holds up rather well.<br /><br />Now, I realize that as fallible human beings we can never "prove" anything 100%. The reason I tend to focus on moral foundations is because every shred of evidence we observe is interpreted according to our presuppositions. In Marie's case, her atheistic presuppositions have virtually destroyed her ability to think rationally. She is making moral judgments with no foundation whatsoever, and her conclusions are completely arbitrary. Our moral foundations inform our entire worldviews, so if that foundation is flawed, everything that follows will be flawed.Lee Sheltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11254842261338255019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-34852109157320791412009-10-10T18:18:57.596-05:002009-10-10T18:18:57.596-05:00Impressive arguments. Lee, your thoughts here are...Impressive arguments. Lee, your thoughts here are very well-composed. Indeed, your argument about the virtual impossibility of establishing some border at which "life begins" is the reason my agnosticism has not led me to be pro-choice. I still consider the legal and moral matters of protecting life to be more important than those of protecting choice. And clearly your and Dawn's life experiences are a powerful defense against the flawed ideas the pro-choice crowd has about the supposed social pathologies that drive the pro-life crowd.<br /><br />I would caution, though, against depending too much on the "basis of one's moral beliefs" argument. You tend to use that angle when it comes to a great many issues, and though it may flummox some of the opposition by drawing them off-course into a sort of philosophical "land war in Asia", I think it's objectively flawed. That's because nobody, including yourself, can really explain the foundation of their moral beliefs absolutely. Christians like to point to the Bible, but the Bible is only a couple thousand years old, and it didn't just appear out of the clouds. The Bible's moral ideas ultimately come from older sources, and nobody except someone who already agrees with you for other reasons is going to be content with an answer that the Bible's moral system just "came from God". Non-Christians will try to point some other basis for their moral principles. Some of them older than the Bible, some of them newer, some of them just parallel in time, and all of them equally arbitrary and ultimately circular.<br /><br />I look forward to seeing whether Marie can actually express some basis for when life begins to deserve protection. But I don't expect either her or your arguments about who has the most absolute moral foundation to be enlightening or productive.Chris Wildehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01931613635162303100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-40445087596617812682009-09-23T09:31:04.766-05:002009-09-23T09:31:04.766-05:00Dear Lee,
I haven't visited your blog in a wh...Dear Lee,<br /><br />I haven't visited your blog in a while. Just did today and just read both of your posts about your e-dialogue with ex-Catholic, now-atheist pro-abortionist Marie.<br /><br />Wow. Thanks for sharing this with the blogosphere. Very insightful and revealing. <br /><br />Furthermore, it shows that occasionally there are limits to what valid, sound, and solid reasoning can do in terms of penetrating through overwrought emotionalism. When a heart becomes as hardened as Marie's (and others like her), then while it's incumbent upon us to show her the logical and biblical reasons to abandon her pro-abortion position, at some point in time it is appropriate to shake the dust off your feet and pray for her.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11738269.post-70969767232251600042009-09-17T12:55:05.258-05:002009-09-17T12:55:05.258-05:00My son, you have become a man!! I thank God every ...My son, you have become a man!! I thank God every day for you Reason on!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com